[Discussion] Neural Laces

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Belsima
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Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 9:50 pm

Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:57 pm

On point 1 and 2- both are almost negated by the Automatic Resleever, which all our downstreams have mapped in, being the downsteams we'd port it from.

Point 3- nobody actually brought that up. Your post is the only one to mention it.

elgeonmb
Posts: 373
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Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:02 pm

It makes significantly more sense that a computer in your brain can take a picture of your brain than that we can somehow reconstruct a biochemical image of your brain after you're six feet under.

And I don't necessarily think having work is a bad thing to do. I know a good number of medical mains who would love to have more work.

elgeonmb
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 1:56 am

Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:26 pm

I'd like to actually go ahead and say that, whatever nebulous feeling-laden discussions happened about laces in the past, I'm pretty much ignorant of them and am making a new proposal based on different arguements. I don't really care if most people don't care about death, for me this is entirely lore-based plus the potential for body-hopping shenanigans.

Mangled
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Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:57 pm

My replies in bold blueness
ZaCyril wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:46 pm


First thing that comes to mind why they are useful - is "to keep security from being cloned over and over again just to return in the battle 3 minute afterwards". I understand this, but I just wonder, why were Neerti's cloning drawbacks denied so much?
As far as I understood, they existed just for the same reason, to make just-cloned people not able to be just as effective as before their death. In fact, they made you VERY vulnerable if you ever had an idea of running back into the battle you lost before, and died due to that (Here I'd rather question how the person wasn't bwoinked yet). Long duration of pretty crippling drawbacks, but no.
No, we'll rather add laces in, which will only give /MEDICAL/ more job and challenge if they want to bring the person, who fucked up, back in the round, and, after resleevement, letting them hop around like a bunny. Let me say it one more time - MEDICAL has to put more effort in brining back a person back in the round, and the only way the player of deadman suffers is more TIME waiting till their revive... What. The resleeved person can get back right into the fight the same way the clone would, just with a bigger time difference. You went really god on dealing with the issue, I'd clap.

I just like this idea more. Besides if the docs didn't want to spend the round patching up crew or bringing deadies back why pick the role.

Second thing, that bothers me so much about laces I already mentioned in first reason - that is, more effort for medical to get the player back in their body, rather than the player paying for his mistake in first place. Come on now, medical already has A LOT of responsabilities on their shoulders by the time round goes loud, why making them waste their sensitive-time during such deadly situations by giving even more useless surgery routine? And in worst cases, when the round gets really chaotic, stealing the ability of players returning back into their bodies just because medical already has too much shit to deal to begin with?


Triage. I do this now and so do a lot of other medical players. By the time you're done putting bandaids on all the people who can still bleed and scream you clone the deads. Amount of effort needed on my part is about the same.


Ah, my favorite one, third - "This will make death mean more for people."
Thrust me - it won't. This is the game, the death in game has not enough meaning to you, and it never will, since it's a free game, where you have 15 minute respawn timer. I've seen the change on Bay, and how it worked, it didn't give any more depth to characters' deaths, nor it never had potential to since the only difference for the player of a deadman is more time taken to bring him back into the round. The only thing that it adds is a way for certain antags to have easier time with echanging crew deadmen for something else, since laces can fit in your pocket, unlike bodies. Hoi, you just put effort into KILLING the dude and REMOVING their lace, why would you make such a fuss just because you have to pull a body bag along during negotiations?

If nobody cares now and won't later but we do gain cloning lore and a gadget that makes the mind uploading make some bit of sense plus an extra mischief for antags to do then I call it a win.

I think the only point I missed was lore. Well answer me how is the idea of your brain's memory being stored in a little device clipped to your skull better than your brain's memory being stored into a cloning computer after a quick scan?

Not counting backups here but fuck backups. Current brain scanny thing takes a photo of a dead brain most of the time. There are little to no electrical whatsits going on for the machine to even see, record and copy into a new body but it does so anyway because Magic. New doodad is recording brain activity while alive, stops recording after ded, gets plugged into new body and through the power of SCIENCE the person can carry on more or less as normal. Apologies for using the term "electrical whatsits" but I'm not actually a brain surgeon so I don't know the proper term for the.. electrical whatsits what happen in brains that the machine here supposedly records.

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Mechoid
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Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:25 pm

If it actually gets in, I'm a fan, if not, oh well. But. BUT!

Surgeon borgs have to be able to be made to grab at the doodad, since this is adding to the job. Research for when they print them, maybe.

elgeonmb
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 1:56 am

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:31 pm

That is a good point! I'm pretty sure the servers that have it have the relevant modifications to the surgery borgs but we will make sure.

Fenodyree
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 4:20 am

Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:41 am

Oh no slow down the cloning because people get back into the game too quickly.
Respawn is five minutes.

The little I played medical with laces, I found them a constant source of irritation.
An experienced player can deal with them quickly sure, but not while they're trying to hold together a medbay solo.
The cloning won't get done in favour of more immediate problems.

Why do people have issues with backups?
Antags destroying or permanently hiding bodies is frowned on.
Backups are less unrealistic that cloning from corpse. A backup scans an intact functional brain, reviving a person minus the chunk of memory after the backup.
Cloning from a corpse means scanning a non-functional brain, fixing the doubtless innumerable defects without a template, and somehow destroying a part of the memory therein. Less believable in my opinion.
Backups are useful if you know in advance that you're going somewhere that recovery is difficult. (EVA, bomb diffusal, etc.)
When cloned from backup you lose all your gear. If there's a functioning command system, you might get the appropriate access and equipment back.
In an emergency? On your bike, scavenge. (Which is a !FUN! experience.)

Changlings gain nothing from farming non-lings anymore, that's a non-issue.

Bodyswap that requires a cloning lab, the corpse of the person you're attempting to impersonate and a surgeon helper is sufficiently difficult that it will almost never happen.

Hoping to get back into a round, staring at your body in the morgue because 'I'm a nurse not a surgeon' is not fun.
With cloning as it is, a crew member and any synth can clone someone (badly).
With laces, they can't.

This means cloning requires not only a body, but a perfectly intact body (No broken skull, or EMPs) AND a surgeon.

In all, the benefits I see from introducing laces are minimal.
The aggravation medical suffers is not minimal.
The annoyance ghosts suffer is not minimal.

Belsima
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 9:50 pm

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:06 pm

automatic resleever

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Mechoid
Posts: 230
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Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:44 pm

Here I go again sticking my head into things as the proxy of borgs. As long as the automatic re/un-lacer is operated by click-drag rather than grab, it's all good. If it's operated by grab, you're making it so borgs can't use it if they have to. And trust me, it is likely they will. (Annoying enough that they can't use the current cloner because of this.)

Re: Feno,

Respawn being five minutes isn't exactly the best argument for the time increase, as they're not joining the round as the same person with the same job. All the officers die, and for some reason respawn? Welp. Seems there's no officers anymore. Engineering dies to an SM explosion, and all respawn? Looks like there's no engineers anymore. I'm not arguing for or against it, it just seems odd to me to compare the two when they aren't the same thing.

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