[Discussion] Neural Laces

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elgeonmb
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 1:56 am

Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm

We're thinking about merging neural laces from our downstream. Below is an integration and a list of pros-and-cons based on being on multiple servers that have mulled over laces.

MECHANICALLY:
Everyone choses in character setup whether or not to have a neural lace, a small implant in the head that allows for cloning. People who choose not to have the implant are effectively unclonable unless Research prints and implants a blank one in the round (so, never). MIF is no longer a thing. Cloning always produces a "blank" body with no ckey using the DNA of whoever's being cloned (it has cloneloss and needs to be "finished" the way cloning currently works). Transfering a ckey from one mob to another now involves removing the neural lace (which kills the character instantly) and implanting it into the new mob. This can be used to clone dead people but can also be used for antaggy body-swapping shenanigens. Lace removal is a surgery. Lace implantation is either a surgery or can be done automatically (if slowly) by a cool magic box.

LOREWISE:
Neural laces are a bundle of sensory fibers that when implanted into a cranium automatically integrate themselves into a brain, taking a moment-by-moment snapshot of that brain's neurological activities. At the moment of brain death, the lace stops making snapshots and prepares for transplantation into a clone. This allows a high degree of fidelity between resleevings and a greater degree of continuity of consciousness, as well as removing the chance of accidentally duplicating a person. Neural laces were produced by a rare NanoTrasen/Vey-Med cooperative research effort and have been rolled out in most major NanoTrasen stations, including the Northern Star, as part of their famous advanced corporate medical insurance.

Removing a lace is impossible without killing the brain into which it has been integrated. There are essentially a myriad microscopic hooks and wires in most major brain clusters, which when yanked out tend to be fatal. Laces are powered by bioelectricity and glucose cells and have a post-mortem battery life of between 15 minutes and an hour-- on site resleeving is necessary. Using a neural lace to transfer bodies outside of the strict cloning pipeline is usually illegal-- doing so to change species is universally illegal under the Five Points.

PROS:
-Lore makes more sense, or at least tries to
-Cool antag body-swapping shenanigans
-Cool antag printing-out-corpses shenanigans
-Eclipse Phase

CONS:
-More work for cloning
-Makes backups no longer a thing (nobody ever uses them, but it was a nice feature to have)
-New lore
-Surgeons might have to learn a new surgery
-Eclipse Phase

Please let us know your thoughts on the matter, and whether or not you think they would be a good addition to the Polaris world and server.

Belsima
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 9:50 pm

Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:55 pm

elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-Lore makes more sense, or at least tries to
This alone is a thumbs up from me, personally.
elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-Cool antag body-swapping shenanigans
Back before Bay removed them again, this was a ton of fun when used, and made for some of the most memorable rounds of my life.
elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-Cool antag printing-out-corpses shenanigans
I can see this being abused by 'lings, but then again it's just a worse monkey cube in those cases. In the case of traitor, this could definitely be useful and fun.
elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-Eclipse Phase
eclipse phase is dank stuff
elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-More work for cloning
Good. Given Neerti's nerfs being shot down, this at least hurts the 'pump out a new officer thanks' ability.
elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-Makes backups no longer a thing (nobody ever uses them, but it was a nice feature to have)
Backups were infuriating bullshit in that you could kill someone and within 3 minutes at no cost to anyone they'd be revived from across the map. In cases where there isn't someone actively trying to keep you from cloning the person, the lace is nigh indestructible, even if the body it's in gibs in a giant explosion.
elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-New lore
there isn't even any lore on cloning as of now so
elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-Surgeons might have to learn a new surgery
[Title dedicated to a practice might need to learn something regarding this practice.] This also only applies without the automated sleever.
elgeonmb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:39 pm
-Eclipse Phase
eclipse phase is dank stuff

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ZekeSulastin
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 11:15 pm

Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:03 pm

Screw antag body swapping crap, that's a good chunk of the reason why I don't play ling.
Screw the overwriting mechanic (which I'm sure someone will point out is rare).
You can already have ~corpse printing~ by bringing back genetics.
Screw not having backups; they are REALLY REALLY USEFUL for science (and screw using "but security!" as a reason to screw with my round).
Screw side nerfs to crew vs antags, because that's pretty much the entire actual purpose of nerfing cloning.
Screw surgery being more important, because medbay isn't already solved with one surgeon and maybe a chemist (or vice versa).

We would pretty much have to go full Eclipse Phase with this for me to switch my vote to yes, but that would be a huge cultural shift.

Belsima
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 9:50 pm

Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:08 pm

ZekeSulastin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:03 pm
Screw antag body swapping crap, that's a good chunk of the reason why I don't play ling.
Transform sting hasn't been in 'ling since 2015, if that's relevant?
ZekeSulastin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:03 pm
Screw the overwriting mechanic (which I'm sure someone will point out is rare).
I mean, the issue here is the same as gibbing someone, which is currently ingame anyway. Unless I misread you.
ZekeSulastin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:03 pm
You can already have ~corpse printing~ by bringing back genetics.
I think we're all aware that's not happening. Nor would it be at all a good idea.
ZekeSulastin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:03 pm
Screw not having backups; they are REALLY REALLY USEFUL for science (and screw using "but security!" as a reason to screw with my round).
Backups were infuriating bullshit in that you could kill someone and within 3 minutes at no cost to anyone they'd be revived from across the map. In cases where there isn't someone actively trying to keep you from cloning the person, the lace is nigh indestructible, even if the body it's in gibs in a giant explosion.
ZekeSulastin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:03 pm
Screw side nerfs to crew vs antags, because that's pretty much the entire actual purpose of nerfing cloning.
This is clearly needed with how often the crew stomps all over antags, anyway. Nevermind that this is also a buff in many ways.
ZekeSulastin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:03 pm
Screw surgery being more important, because medbay isn't already solved with one surgeon and maybe a chemist (or vice versa).
The automatic resleever bypasses this and is used by the only downstreams I know if, which is what I assume Elgeon refers to.

Asillyn00b
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:57 am

Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:47 pm

Small suggestion, can it be changed to a single daily snapshot. I think it would be best so we don't have Jarheads who remember the face of who killed them and w/e

Mangled
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 10:39 pm

Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:00 pm

Thank you for getting my opinion on backups across in a more polite manner than I was able to manage. With that out of the way, have a copypasted pile of words what I done posted in the sekrit treehouse.


Hells yeah to body swapping mischief in a limited fashion. Lings haven't had transform other for freakin ages now and this method requires some Effort and carries a decent chance of being caught before you're ready to go. Also, its reversible. Sure the method to reverse it involves killing folk but yey edgy arpees.

However as has been mentioned medbay population isn't very dependable lately. You said up top that implantation of a new lace can be done either via surgery or with a Magic Box which takes a while. Could removal be made the same way?

Added delay to getting back in round is indeed a concern but to be honest with you after several days FUCKING YEARS worth of watching certain players die stupidly, get cloned, march off to die again, get cloned etc etc I'm actually okay with this. Yes some deaths suck but many more are due to players doing a dumb thing, more time to cool off before they go forth and die once more is hardly a bad thing. They might even learn from their experience. Besides, players can always choose not to go after the cargotech with the machinegun over and over again in hopes they run out of bullets. (They will not run out of bullets)

As for CMD, could simply rewrite the "moment by moment snapshot" part to every x minutes or so. From there we PRETEND that the deadie got deaded in the time between backups. Oh or daily as Asily suggested. Thats a better idea.

**As for Chaplain related stuff..: Well thats just your opinion, man. We have players who believe Posibrains have souls already plus much RPs can be had either by Chaplains incorporating this technology into their faith or by making sermons against it. They can even elect to not have such an implant if they so desire. "but then mah chaplains gon be permadeed!" Yeah but they'll get to go to Heaven. Because they have a soul. Unlike all these heathens. So they either have nothing to worry about or they (or the player) aren't as committed to their beliefs as they would have you believe. In which case sad violin. Also, defibs are a thing so who cares. If medbay can't get a dead Chaplain to the zappy paddles within the time limit then odds are they wouldn't be able to clone them anyway be it from hidden body, destroyed body or destroyed medbay.**

All in all back on Bay I was very against this idea but as presented here I think its pretty decent if a bit fiddly.

*This part of the post was made in response to someone expressing concerns for the impact this would have on religious characters/Chaplains, should probably delete it since lack of context but for now I'm letting it stay**

elgeonmb
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 1:56 am

Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:05 pm

I'm very much a fan of lowering the backup rate. Maybe it only happens during sleep? I think the "moment-by-moment snapshot" chunk got embed in my explanation from explaining how Eclipse Phase stacks work.

And mangled you make a good point vis a vis defibs, which I constantly forget about. Defibs provide a buffer against a lot of the effort-based criticisms of resleeving.

Belsima
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 9:50 pm

Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:13 pm

On the topic of Chaplains- whenever I play Chaplain, half the fun is struggling to update your religion to the technology given. MMIs, FBPs, Prosthetics, Cloning, everything. If anything, this helps clear up issues with cloning, given some people already treat positronics as posessing souls, and this gives continuation of the mind/soul rather than simply making a copy.

LorenLuke
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 8:02 am

Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:17 am

Personally, I like the idea and it makes a hell of a lot more lore sense than
'Some magical force keeps us from making an army of this same guy over and over and over and over, again.'

It provides a non-inconceivable way to store memories that isn't just 'magically teleport the consciousness back to the clone', allows for more antag play/potential ethical/RP considerations, and prevents people from rushing antags and dying, given that the head must be recovered to clone (as opposed to pre-backing up).

Major concerns include:
-'Body swapping crap', which has to happen very specifically, and I would encourage you to demonstrate how it could be conceivably spammed like wiz mindswap or transformation sting.
-'Screw the overwriting mechanic (which I'm sure someone will point out is rare). You can already have ~corpse printing~ by bringing back genetics.' Even if it was 100% chance to, would be better IMO. And as for bringing back genetics, well... if you want to code that, be our beloved guest. Until then, this is a decent solution.
-'Screw not having backups; they are REALLY REALLY USEFUL for science (and screw using "but security!" as a reason to screw with my round).' Screw not being stupid, amirite? 'Hey, if I go down in xenobio, who can come get me? Here are supplies to help you. Here are instructions. Make a mech maybe...?
-'Screw side nerfs to crew vs antags, because that's pretty much the entire actual purpose of nerfing cloning.' It makes the shit players less able to be shit (they're dead, you see) and those who RP will generally be spared. Unless you have a shit antag, at which point, this doesn't necessarily help you.
-'Screw surgery being more important, because medbay isn't already solved with one surgeon and maybe a chemist (or vice versa).' Indeed there's a device for doing this with a touch of a button.

-'As for CMD, could simply rewrite the "moment by moment snapshot" part to every x minutes or so. From there we PRETEND that the deadie got deaded in the time between backups. Oh or daily as Asily suggested. Thats a better idea.' Honestly, the CMD of 'you forget everything in the past 20 minutes or so, could easily be applied here as either, it fits for being in between memory back ups, or death is so traumatic it wipes the last 20 minutes.

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ZaCyril
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:19 pm

Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:46 pm

Urgh, this again.
Laces dear laces, such a good idea for any sci-fi game, but SS13.

First thing that comes to mind why they are useful - is "to keep security from being cloned over and over again just to return in the battle 3 minute afterwards". I understand this, but I just wonder, why were Neerti's cloning drawbacks denied so much?
As far as I understood, they existed just for the same reason, to make just-cloned people not able to be just as effective as before their death. In fact, they made you VERY vulnerable if you ever had an idea of running back into the battle you lost before, and died due to that (Here I'd rather question how the person wasn't bwoinked yet). Long duration of pretty crippling drawbacks, but no.
No, we'll rather add laces in, which will only give /MEDICAL/ more job and challenge if they want to bring the person, who fucked up, back in the round, and, after resleevement, letting them hop around like a bunny. Let me say it one more time - MEDICAL has to put more effort in brining back a person back in the round, and the only way the player of deadman suffers is more TIME waiting till their revive... What. The resleeved person can get back right into the fight the same way the clone would, just with a bigger time difference. You went really god on dealing with the issue, I'd clap.

Second thing, that bothers me so much about laces I already mentioned in first reason - that is, more effort for medical to get the player back in their body, rather than the player paying for his mistake in first place. Come on now, medical already has A LOT of responsabilities on their shoulders by the time round goes loud, why making them waste their sensitive-time during such deadly situations by giving even more useless surgery routine? And in worst cases, when the round gets really chaotic, stealing the ability of players returning back into their bodies just because medical already has too much shit to deal to begin with?

Ah, my favorite one, third - "This will make death mean more for people."
Thrust me - it won't. This is the game, the death in game has not enough meaning to you, and it never will, since it's a free game, where you have 15 minute respawn timer. I've seen the change on Bay, and how it worked, it didn't give any more depth to characters' deaths, nor it never had potential to since the only difference for the player of a deadman is more time taken to bring him back into the round. The only thing that it adds is a way for certain antags to have easier time with echanging crew deadmen for something else, since laces can fit in your pocket, unlike bodies. Hoi, you just put effort into KILLING the dude and REMOVING their lace, why would you make such a fuss just because you have to pull a body bag along during negotiations?

I think the only point I missed was lore. Well answer me how is the idea of your brain's memory being stored in a little device clipped to your skull better than your brain's memory being stored into a cloning computer after a quick scan?

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