[Suggestion] Ending types of rounds

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woody41
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:32 pm

Fri May 01, 2020 11:19 pm

Hi,

I would like to open discussion about ending of the rounds. We have several types of endings: Crew transfer, Emergency transfer, Nar-Sie, Bluespace, Singularity escape etc. All of the ends can be done ICly except Crew transfer. Players have to vote about the crew transfer and what is crazy, players are forced to vote, because the voting is forced every one hour by server. Why I think this is bad? Read more

Reason one:

Let's split server players to A, B and C groups. Group A is happy with the round and do not want to finish it. Group B and C are not happy, they probably don't have any action, any special tasks. Forced voting: A votes for continue, B+C votes for initiate transfer. Result: New round. Next round starts as before, extended (Yes, it is usually what I see on server, because nobody press "Ready") and less players then votes for crew transfer has joined the game. Next round: Group B is happy but A+C is not. Vote result: crew transfer. This is reason, why crew transfer voting, is not solution for unhappy players.

Reason two:

Why people in lobby or observing players can vote for crew transfer? The don't play in the round, they usually don't play next round. Why they can affect the round even they are not a part of round?

Reason three:

I heard a lot of reasons for crew transfer, for example "It's 6 hours long". What's the nonsense it is? This game is created to be long for each round. How many players know the items, that you can find in "late" game? Do you know for example, that the Health scanner (computer scanner) in Medbay can be replaced by handy health analyzer? Yes, it exist health analyzer which will tell you everything as Health scanner. Do you know, how to build Janus? It is impossible to get these item in first few hours of game. You need a lot of material for research, explorers and miners must bring what they found, sciencist must do research and then you can produce something better. Impossible in 2 hour round.

Reason four:

If something should happend, it will takes about 20-30 minuts to traitor before he do something. That's the fact. You need some preparations, some stuff, think about the gimmick etc. Length of crew transfer is 25 minutes to next round: (10 minutes shuttle, 3 minutes waiting, 2 minutes enrout, 3 minutes restart, 3 minutes initialization of server, 3+1 minutes starting. And then some minutes for next "event" - meaning antagonist act. This can be almost 40 minutes. This is a lot. Why we wasted our time by useles crew transfers?

------------------------------------------------------------

Solution:

If players are unhappy, the solution cannot be found in next round, it must be solved in the round what actually is.

What are my suggestions:
  1. I do not want to remove Crew transfer voting but I would to change it. It will no be forced by server, but anybody can vote for crew transfer every 3 hours from last voting and at least 6 hours from a start of the round.
  2. Crew transfer need at least 75% of active players to be accepted. (Active player = player which is in game. Not observers, no ghosts, no in lobby players)
  3. Only active players can vote for crew transfer.
  4. Add new voting for unhappy players. Let's name it "Would you like to pepper the round?" 50% people needed to pepper the round. What is it? It should add antagonist to round, if there is enough observers it can offer them to join the game as Mercenary, Wizard, whatever, or it can start some event. Please note that this will save 25 minutes of round and players lives. Antagonists are spawned instantly, not after start of new round (Reason four).
  • We will achieve longer rounds with same conditions.
  • It will improve low population rounds.
  • Server will be more powerful and differend from other servers.
  • This will not remove possible mods, it will just make the round longers and/or
  • the rounds will be more spicy.


If you want to comment for example "No, the old system is better" don't comment. Explain why at least. Thank you

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thezblah
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 1:47 pm

Sat May 02, 2020 10:10 pm

We already went from a 3 hour minimum round to a 2 hour minimum round. Also a LOT of people don't have time to commit to a 6 hour minimum round. Also players don't necessarily get upset when or unhappy when there isn't anything exciting happening, a lot of times people just want a fresh round. Adding antags mid round would only work if anyone actually has antag enabled, but regardless I think a much less drastic change would be something like requiring shuttle transfers to have a 2/3 majority vote instead of an any majority.

woody41
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:32 pm

Sun May 03, 2020 12:40 pm

Hi, Thank you for your answer. I know that people have no time to commit 6 hours, but for this reasons there is cryo. Regrading the fresh round. Fresh round is the same as a 2 hour round. Nothing is changed on low pop at least on round that I know from low pop. (Usually 2pm - 8pm UTC time) And adding antag during the round has the same requirements as befor the game starts (or no?). What is drastic to have a long round? I still don't understand.

Thank for supporting 2/3 majority for crew transfer.

Atlantis
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:56 am

Mon May 04, 2020 10:55 pm

First of all, a friendly request to everyone if you don't want to read it all:

If you just want to head offline, and do not intend to play the next round, PLEASE do not vote for transfer, and use cryo instead. Other players may have a thing going on, and by voting so you are forcing others to end whatever they are doing as well. Including things that may have took many hours to prepare.

Now actual full version:
I am inclined to agree with most points. Personally, i also hate when rounds are cut short by transfer. Just as an example, round about 10 minutes ago ended due to a transfer vote ending with a tie, and RNG picking transfer (just as a note - this is not a salt reply, i in fact have a problem with transfers for quite a long time as well, dating back to Bay). As i also know quite a bit about game design (I've been actually coding for SS13 for few years, back on Bay), i've tried to analyse this "problem" of why people tend to vote transfer so much. As i see it, there are in fact two problems, with one leading to another.

First, more minor, problem is that some people simply become bored when there is not much going on. This can be partially mitigated using game mechanics. In this particular case, for example by using "smart" event scheduling, which takes into account current state of departments. Right now, events are RNG-picked, with more staffed departments having higher event probabilities. It could be changed to actually skew the event probabilities depending on state of that department as well (for example, engineering event probabilities can be slightly reduced for each active alarm. Medical event probabilities can be reduced if there are injured/dead crewmembers. You get the idea). That way, events will be more likely to target department which is more "bored", at least mechanically speaking. Another problem might be a general lack of events for certain departments, but that could be solved by coming up with new event ideas. This system can also be used to toss in more antags. As a reaction to previous reply - if nobody enables antag, nobody will be made one. I don't see a problem in that. If you are bored, and want to make the round more interesting, enable your antagonist preferences, which has a chance of giving you the tools to make the round interesting again.

Second, and personally i think more major problem is that most players tend to see crew transfer as a way to "wrap up" the round for themselves, for example before they head off to bed. Most people will vote for transfer simply because they want to head offline, and won't even think of entering cryo instead. While i more or less understand that (Entering cryo does not have that "and the whole crew's shift is over" feel), i personally hate it, as i believe this is why most people vote for transfer. Speaking from my actual experience here: I had a well started round, and i was working on a project in engineering. Transfer vote started, and tied. RNG once again picked transfer, so here we are, project screwed up again. Now, of course, an argument can be made "Deal with it, other half of players wanted a new round". Incorrect. I actually observed the start of that next round. 0 (Zero) players joined that round on start (+ about 10 minutes after, i went offline after that).

While adjusting voting to need higher majority would mitigate the problem (an don't get me wrong, i fully support that as well), it would not fix it. As i see it, there are only two actual solutions, none of which are likely to happen:
1. A change in majority of players' view of transfer vote, that ensures these players only vote for transfer if they actually plan to join the next round, and are unsatisfied with the current one. This is unlikely to happen, as i bet most players don't even read this forum.
2. Full removal of crew transfer as a vote altogether, and instead implementing things that ensure round remains interesting for everyone for longer durations, such as mid-game antagonist additions, more events, you get the idea. This is also very unlikely to happen, as someone would have to make the "hard decision" to go this way. If anything, i offer my help with any coding changes if it is needed.

User avatar
ZekeSulastin
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 11:15 pm

Tue May 05, 2020 10:23 pm

The entire event thing is literally what Neerti's new event system is trying to address, along with adding new events, reactivating old ones, adding variants of existing ones, etc. Have you looked at how it computes available crew/"chaos" level etc. and if so do you have any commentary? We've been making sure it's toggled on as we can.

The change I would think would help immediately is to make a tie always stick with "stay"/make it a supermajority/similar, and that alone would go a long way towards fixing the perception of rounds ending early given how many ties there are. I honestly think a lot of our rounds go on long enough (look at all the 24h memes in Discord), and frankly given how there is an ongoing dev trend to increase lethality I'd rather have a fresh round after a day (or hours or whatever) instead of having to roleplay being maimed by the antag/bullshit PvE of the day. (in b4 "play another character V:")

Personally, I don't vote as a ghost and I only vote to End Round if I do plan on playing the next one; I don't necessarily always join because there are round types I do not play, but that's the general plan. I couldn't tell you what peoples' general views were, but I don't think the majority really do anything as every round vote I've been on for has only involved 25-50% of the active players.

Also cryo is still blindingly stupid from a lore perspective now that we are in an inhabited system can we please just have some other way to despawn that doesn't cause the hand-wringing that the gateway does thanks.

woody41
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:32 pm

Wed May 06, 2020 12:20 pm

Also cryo is still blindingly stupid from a lore perspective now that we are in an inhabited system can we please just have some other way to despawn that doesn't cause the hand-wringing that the gateway does thanks.
Hmm and what about to add feature in IC tab "Recall my character to central command". This will send an announcement to the station with text for example "John Smith has been recalled to the Central command. Please get to the crew transfer zone for departure. Shuttle will arrive in 2 minutes." - Get on the shuttle and just fly back to the central command. It is better than cryo and I think more funny.

Atlantis
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:56 am

Sat May 09, 2020 12:14 am

A possible improvement to @Woody41 's last suggestion for cryo replacement, this "transfer" shuttle could, in fact, run automatically in periodic intervals (every 15 minutes?) rather than being called by player clicking on a button.

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