De-escalation of the Sec/Antag arms race

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Asillyn00b
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:57 am

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:41 pm

A massive de-escalation of weaponry on station. I was kinda thinking about more stuff and like how come both antags and security is geared to fight off a small invasion? Why not de-escalated both sides and make pistols/SMG's reign king? Instead of the usual Assault Rifle/Shotgun/Snipers that get brought out

Currently both sides are usually showing up to eachother looking like they just hopped out of the Rainbow 6 verse and are ready to take down a bunch of baddies. I think the balance of both damage and cost should be made to reflect more of a Pistol/SMG battle than the current set up of both teams rolling up in full suits. One example would be maybe raising the price of the STS for antags and effective armor to be that if you really want to go loud and hold yourself that should take the majority of your tickets if not more, and for Security an emphasis would be placed more on carrying pistols and SMG's with maybe a shotgun or two in the armor, also making Slugs available via Cargo only so that buckshot and beanbag would be the only choices for that. Generally I think we should embrace the more...relaxed nature of the settings location being that we're no longer expecting to defend our top secret research base and instead just some working station somewhere in the middle of nowhere sort of.

elgeonmb
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 1:56 am

Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:07 pm

+1 tbh

actually screw is naidh is right, -1. i think taking away some of sec and cargo's gubbins might be a good idea but leave tators as they are

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naidh
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:04 pm

Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:51 pm

Let me put away my hat and pull out my spoons for this: hard -1 from me.

Gameplay-wise, this feels like it would- in the end- be a major rebalance that’s going to cause problems. It's going to change how people play and further stigmatize combative antagonism because it's making these assets which people utilize for these purposes much harder to get. It's bad enough that half of the people we have getting autotraitored are whisper quiet and non-interactive until suddenly they Cuban Pete everything or simply don't do anything antagonistic enough to necessitate escalation.

Cargo orders are for weapons are minimal— the LWAP is ordered on occasion and typically solely by explorers because of its perceived ineffectiveness short of giving you the safety net of plinking someone from range, the Bulldogs are nearly never ordered; and burst lasers are frequent when their type of edge is needed.

Lore-wise, this makes absolutely no sense with the current state of events. Take into account 04/07/18’s “Boiling Point Tragedy in Gavel” where the NanoTrasen Logistics Station Aquarius was attacked by Boiling Point terrorists, the 11/24/18 “Boiling Point Stronghold Seized in Vir” where a terrorist post in the Ullran Expanse— right upon the Southern Cross— was shut down by a joint operations strike team between the SolGov Fleet and Almachi Militia directly assisted by on-duty NanoTrasen personnel: including their security team.

Throw on the recent coup in Aetolus that lead to the Almach Association going public, leaving major NanoTrasen holdings gone and the Board of Trustees assumed dead. Now, throw on the oncoming Valentine's Ultimatum.

The ‘relaxed nature of the setting’ is unfortunately a non-argument with an ongoing story arc like this. The armoury is fine and balanced as it is with respects owed to the fact that these are trained corporate security officers from a highly esteemed and prominent trans-stellar corporation: these installations and their crew are expensive and the loss of everything beyond the border likely has NanoTrasen reeling in the slightest.

‘We don’t expect a terrorist attack’ does not make a reason to be unprepared, especially in the current lore climate or the current antagonist climate.

AncientV25
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:41 am

Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:15 pm

From a sec-player perspective, I literally have not seen assault rifles or sniper weapons or etc etc brought out more than once or twice over the period of a few months by antags or security opposing them. Shotguns get brought out because they're right in the armory(generally with nonlethal ammunition, though sometimes we get lucky and there's a combat shotgun in the tac-armory..) It is, for the most part, tasers/energy guns, .45 pistols, and shotguns, + whatever spawns in the tactical armory(At the luckiest; two combat shotguns and two laser rifles -- or two SMGs and two laser rifles.)

From an outside world perspective: Shotguns of any type are, in fact, a significantly more common weapon than any SMG -- it would make even less sense to have the armory full of those than it does the existing shotgun loadout(and tac-armory gear), not least of which balancing it around more than just 'lol traitors buying guns!!'(there are other antagonist types, y'know?)
..and traitors have a literal connection to a black market that beams weapons and other useful equipment in with weapons that are technically a lot more powerful than a gun(energy sword, remote detonated explosives???), so it's not like they're all coming in 'prepared to fight off an invasion' -- it's just some dude who got body armor and an automatic weapon through illicit means, something that is entirely possible in the real world in a lot of places.

Then we have the existing story arc and canonized events that Naidh already mentioned

tl;dr: While I'm not completely happy with the balance of power or excessive weaponization, changing it will take significant rebalancing to most existing antagonists and probably also the weapons themselves for a system that probably won't work the way you're envisioning it, while also forcing people to suspend their disbelief even further than they should(putting guns away in the midst of terrorist attacks?)

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Cerebulon
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 1:58 am

Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:23 pm

I'm with Ancient. I mainly play security and haven't used or faced off against a single 'military' weapon in months, it's all been pistols and smgs aside from the laser carbines which aren't a huge step up from pistols anyway.
Hell, I rarely even have to use the armour. The only people with big guns in my experience are explorers who have been very lucky, and those guns shouldn't be on the station anyway.

Anewbe
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 am

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:10 pm

At risk of being crucified, there was some discussion about making the code more antag-friendly during or around the last Staff Meeting, and while I'm not currently in a position (temporally, I've only got like 5 minutes, tops) to say whether or not I think this is a beneficial idea at this very moment, I will say that there are things we're going to be coding shortly, and depending on where those go, we may find it prudent to revisit this.

Also, I'm going to say that Almach is a non-argument when it comes to blocking gameplay changes. Yes, the lore implies that we understand and think about the conflict, but a) Security isn't going to be fighting on the main front; NT is still civilian when push comes to shove (We've got at least a page on the people who will be on the front, for those who are unaware, and we're not nearly grimdark enough to have corporatized military forces on every station ever); b) those canon events were done to get people involved in event rounds, and it's not wise or fun to assume that those are the norm, or even repeating; and c) critically, lore sometimes* needs to take a back seat when it comes to making the server more practical, fun, or balanced. See the aforementioned note about antag-friendliness, or our long-standing lack of hard-set cloning lore, hard and fast SoP for every department, or a functional HR department [only half joking]. Specifically in regards to the first point, we're not nearly PvE friendly enough to chronically not have antags, nor do I believe removing antags is a positive or productive line of discussion, so, conceptually, making things a little bit more tilted in their favor seems like a wise move.

On top of that, if there's concern about how much work it'll be to rebalance things, that's sort of the whole point of dev teams and an active codebase. Things can change, and rechange, again and again, until things fit. The safest path is not always the best path, and sometimes we need to strike out into the unknown in order to move forward.

Mangled
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 10:39 pm

Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:48 pm

Against, not for lore reasons, not for "but civilian" but because this is going to end in a lot of ahelps of "BOB MCWARDEN IS ORDERING GUNS" and I can only type out IC issue so many times before I flip a table. Its what happened last time we toned down the armoury and that was when I was more willing to humour some of the more unreasonable problems that find their way to adminhelps.

Anewbe
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 am

Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:59 pm

We have an IC issue button now, you silly.

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DasIrrlicht
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:11 pm

Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:21 pm

I need to agree with all the Security above.
Biggest I normally see is Energy-pistols from security and the odd named gun from the antags.
There is rarely any need to bring out bigger weapons, and outside of events, I do seldom see secs in armour.

All in all, as player to mainly low pop times, I need to say that I do not see the arms race the title claims to happen.
The only time it could reasonable be assumed is in Merc-Ronds, a rarety outside of Calamity.

In all other time, Rule 4.6 normally holds hands with a reasonable aproach to arms. That and the myth of the boink, because carrying not easily concealed weapons will surely result in a Situation.

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ZekeSulastin
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 11:15 pm

Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:48 pm

Just going to add that aside from `muh antags`, you can also get heavy weaponry and mechs from Research and one mining load is typically enough to outshine the entire armory, especially if you get a diamond or three. Granted, that depends on mining making a first delivery at a reasonable point in the round instead of hoarding for 1h50m, but it's there.

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