[Discussion] BrainMed

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Woodrat
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 11:22 pm

Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:19 am

Wiki link is wrong,

Link

Curt5
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:42 pm

Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:17 am

Personally, I don't find chemistry fun. It's pushing buttons and reading a wiki guide.

Personally, I find the Baymed system to be far less daunting than the current one. I was able to jump into it with very very minimal wiki-skimming and referencing back, and jump in successfully. While the current system still kinda stumps me, purely from a juggling chemicals standpoint.
However, Baymed does need serious changes before I'd be happy implementing it, many of them I've noted in the staff thread. FBPs being immortal and bullets/headshots in general being very weak needs looking into. The vague sensors and pointless scanning is already planned to be axed, I believe.
However, despite these issues, I feel it's the better system. It makes actual medical skills (quick bandaging, rapid diagnosis and surgery, triage) important, rather than relying on a utility belt of magic potions. Chemicals are still used and still useful, of course, but more for finishing touches or to get the moderately wounded well, rather than being the main source of healing.
It makes the medbay action-packed when the wounded come in, with multiple people all moving at once to keep people alive, rather than having everything be a one-man show.
Taking Baymed, and splicing in the parts of our current OldMed that are good should produce a better whole after an initial adjustment and evaluation period.
Last edited by Curt5 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anatidaephobic
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:34 pm

Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:01 pm

I think your 'juggling chemicals' problem might be more a mindset-going-in thing than an actual complexity in the system- I personally just stab people with the things they need and it works, and I don't think the current system is daunting at all. 'Utility belt of magic potions' can be fixed in a hell of a lot of other ways than adopting Bay's system, and my greatest source of skepticism here is that going through a switch to Baymed is a lot more difficult than just applying the things that have been suggested all along on the current system. I still think you're bloody mad on the subject of chemistry, Wickedtemp (share the DAMN macros, you can run but you can't hide) but find the rest of your argument agreeable. This seems like it'll be a cobra effect.

Mangled
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 10:39 pm

Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:39 pm

For Chems fix everything: Just nerf chems then, make the bone and organ fixy ones take ages to do their job, still viable options but surgery would be prefferable, assuming said surgeon knows how to play the role.

For Invinci FPBs: Considering who's claiming it I.. yeah sure whatever mate is about as polite as I can be in doubting your opinion given the last thing you claimed to be unkillable was a promethean you couldn't be assed to doubletap once it fell down.

Honestly it just seems like a lot of bother for very little gain other than annoyed players.

Wickedtemp
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:29 am

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:04 am

Anatidaephobic wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:01 pm
I think your 'juggling chemicals' problem might be more a mindset-going-in thing than an actual complexity in the system- I personally just stab people with the things they need and it works, and I don't think the current system is daunting at all. 'Utility belt of magic potions' can be fixed in a hell of a lot of other ways than adopting Bay's system, and my greatest source of skepticism here is that going through a switch to Baymed is a lot more difficult than just applying the things that have been suggested all along on the current system. I still think you're bloody mad on the subject of chemistry, Wickedtemp (share the DAMN macros, you can run but you can't hide) but find the rest of your argument agreeable. This seems like it'll be a cobra effect.
Tbh I've always told people how to use macros, but... you kinda need to ask first, otherwise I don't know you're interested.

The reason we have to use the ""magic potions"" is because there are no other options.

You cannot heal severe (55+)brute or burn trauma without chems unless you get lucky and get a second or third application of kits on the same limb.

You cannot heal toxins without chems.

You cannot heal genetic damage or oxy in any significant amount without chems.

Trauma and burn kits used to be slightly more effective but they were nerfed a bit a while back. So it's weird to see "we dont want to rely on chems, now excuse us while we make non chem methods of healing a little more worse".

I've suggested bumping bicard and kelotanes heal down to 4, so it'd be equal to dylovene, and bumping dermaline and carthat to 8 per unit. Change alkysine to be closer to imidazoline or carthat in terms of organ healing and tada, chem is a bit more balanced.
Mangled wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:39 pm
For Chems fix everything: Just nerf chems then, make the bone and organ fixy ones take ages to do their job, still viable options but surgery would be prefferable, assuming said surgeon knows how to play the role.

For Invinci FPBs: Considering who's claiming it I.. yeah sure whatever mate is about as polite as I can be in doubting your opinion given the last thing you claimed to be unkillable was a promethean you couldn't be assed to doubletap once it fell down.

Honestly it just seems like a lot of bother for very little gain other than annoyed players.
Peridaxon already DOES take ages. Past five or so damage, it's already faster to just do the surgery. There's no point in slowing it down even more. Carthatoline is just nice so we don't have to operate on every single alcoholic edgelord, but the organ heal could be nerfed slightly because its one of the easier surgeries. Imidazoline is handy so we don't have to operate every single time a roboticist or engineer forgot their welding helmet, I'd personally want to keep it where it's at. Alkysine DOES need a nerf because one unit heals 30 brain damage, when it should probably be 3-5.

If you want to stop relying on chems for everything, give chems the slight nerf and give trauma and burn kits a buff. There's alread zero point to USE the advanced kits over gauze and ointment now that ointment disinfects. The 3 damage heal is useless unless you're trying to defib a corpse and they both start the same passive heal at the same rate at the same threshold. The only advantage the advanced kits actually had was Disinfect, but that was made redundant as well.

Nerezza
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:05 pm

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:34 am

The Bay wiki kind of implies that there's not much difference between BrainMed and what we currently do. I'm for the changes because of the focus on keeping a patient's brain alive, and the only complaints I'm really seeing right now is that Bay's weaponry doesn't do enough damage so players are surviving extreme scenarios too easily, a pretty easy fix in my opinion.

On top of that, later down the line it could possibly become a nice model for FBP-medical. An FBP's brain is still alive, right? It needs a supply of oxygen and nutrients to function, and the life support system would be particularly vulnerable in much the same way the heart and lungs would be in a person.

Wickedtemp
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:29 am

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:54 am

Woodrat wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:19 am
Wiki link is wrong,

Link
Edited my comment about it to accommodate. The TLDR is "while that link works, the wiki itself is in horrible condition and needs to be nearly entirely rewritten due to the sheer amount of inaccuracies". It's...honestly really bad, so I made a post about it in 'pages for review' found here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=516

MaximumOverlizard
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:00 pm

Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:40 am

Woodrat wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 1:36 am
--
Potential Benefits:


- More in-depth than our current system

- Makes CPR great again

- Step away from chemicals fix all

- No longer beholden to is at 200+ brute and is forever dead

- We can muck with what we don’t like (we’ll keep cloning)

--

Potential Concerns:


- Chemical stacking is nerfed in BrainMed. We’ll have to go through and fix or modify this to suit our needs

- Concerns about how it effects laser weapons and ballistics. Concerns that it makes ballistics less damaging than lasers. Either lasers have to be brought down, or preferably ballistics brought up to lasers. Either way, another item that needs to be modified or fixed.

- Entire new medical system that people need to learn. This could be quite annoying, (thankfully we can liberate and modify Bay guides as needed

- Concerns in regards to FBPs and such and being hard to kill with the new system. Can hopefully be adjusted and sorted by our developers.
So I'm not sure I follow from this, I'm going to try to break this down into my game designer perspective.

PROBLEMS:
The problems appear to be centered around a lack of "Realism" and the strength of chemical solutions.

I'm going to counter:

Is BrainMed actually a good solution for either of those? Does it solve the problems it's in response to? Does it do so in a better way than alternatives by tweaking the current codebase?

At a higher level, is lack of realism vs. gamification even a problem?

The organs having uses and affecting blood flow and toxin filtration is sort of nifty, sure. Blood flow, blood oxygenation, blood toxicity, cardiac arrest... the system isn't boring, but it seems a bit overwrought. I, personally, suspect that it meshes poorly as part of Polaris as a whole, though this is speaking as someone who hasn't tried the system firsthand.

Difficulty of diagnosis and increased turnaround time make it more difficult to resolve issues in a timely manner, increasing lethality or "out of RP" time (time spent brain-dead, anesthetized, etc.).

Reduced effectiveness of chems (1) is easily solved by adding viable alternatives to our codebase (2) reduces the capacity to dose someone appropriately or give them a prescription and send them on their way.

Polaris is already a bit tight on people, and medical players. Keeping a surgeon and a patient locked up in surgery might mean you're losing 20% or even 50% of the players in a round, depending on the time of day. That's a significant decrease in the number of actively RPing personnel that shouldn't be dismissed casually.

User avatar
Woodrat
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 11:22 pm

Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:59 pm

Was discussed in depth at the staff meeting. In short, saying that it’s going to be a port of baymed is a simplification and somewhat wrong one (this is on me). As stated at the meeting, the reason Baymed was used as an example is that it’s the closest thing to what Anewbe saw as an example of the direction that they desired to go in enhancing medical. That is, a medical system that is a bit more in depth with a focus that resembles how a real body works, (i.e. the squishy bits keep the squishy brain alive). Every other server either uses something similar to us currently or something we’d prefer not to use.

In short, the only major thing that will apparently be taken from bay medical is the concepts on how the brain is the focus of the whole body.

This is not going to be a wholescale port of Baymed. This is an attempt to take the concept, borrow what works, and improve what doesn’t work while adding our own unique flavor. Something that improves gameplay, making it engaging and interesting, with realism being a distant third. The medical system has not had a major improvement enhancement or change in about five years or more.

A lot of the concerns and comments mentioned in this thread have been noted as things to look out for to improve. This includes keeping the current amount of blackscreen one looks at on average as a spaceman under the knife to being roughly the same amount of time (doctor’s competency notwithstanding). If you folks have more concerns especially those that have played with Baymed Mention them here. Post them as things to worry about (example, FBPs being tanks).

Granted this system is not going to occur overnight. The project might die in three months. It could be six months before any working systems are even remotely in place (or I could be pleasantly surprised and it could be ready for testing by then). The pessimist in me says it’ll be a year before we’re even ready to have it fully implemented.

But, folks are aware of it now so it is not a surprise if/when it comes down the road. If folks want a recording of what was said at the staff meeting in regards to the system, that link can be provided upon request (will require me to upload it).

MaximumOverlizard
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:00 pm

Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:44 am

I'd be interested to give it a listen. If pieces of BayMed are going to be sliced off and stapled to this medical core, rather than taking a round Baymed peg and then trying to cram it into Polaris' square hole, that probably will work better at identifying the pain points, if nothing else.

I'm cautiously optimistic about making the damage escalate through organs and blood toxicity and stuff.

Some very small baseline healing rate of organs (so it isn't "UGH TIME TO GET THE PERIDAXON, YOU HAVE TWO POINTS OF KIDNEY DAMAGE") might help avoid excessive surgery adventures? Iunno. Something very small so it's only useful for things that would essentially not have been a problem anyway.

Maybe set up periodic calls for people to a test server for short sessions of ROBUSTING EACH OTHER and then trying to heal the damage in an optimized white room (i.e. no RP, just healing) before merging stuff in properly?

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